all views are welcome, let's use two wings to soar!

Rolling out the Immigrant Welcome Mat…

In Recent Headlines on April 30, 2010 at 2:24 pm

I am writing this at the risk of alienating my core readers and commenters, but neither will I pretend to only see in blue and ignore red. I prefer to think I have violet colored glasses to view the world. 

I will start with the medicine. Open wide and swallow the bitter stuff I am about to serve you. 

  • I don’t have a problem with making English the native language
  • I don’t have a problem with requiring proof of citizenship 

That said, before the rebuttals start I will also say what I do have a problem with:

  • I think that we need compassion not hatred for new immigrants to our country
  • I think the propensity for profiling is immense and quite unsettling, because really, what DOES an immigrant look like? We need to be careful.  

It bothers me how often the finger is pointed at illegal immigrants for the problems in our nation. SOMEONE is giving them jobs. Let’s point in the right direction! If there were no cheap skate employers paying substandard wages without benefits so they could make a higher profit, there would be no motivation for anyone to come here illegally. If instead of border patrols and totalitarian regimes, we aggressively penalized the companies that gave jobs to illegal immigrants, we’d have a much more efficient border patrol. Worried about illegal aliens? Stop enabling incentives.  This is why I support citizenship papers. I realize those can be forged as easily as social security cards, and there always seems to be ways around a system, but at least set it up in good faith. It makes it that much more difficult to accidentally hire an illegal if they must provide proof.

As to the providing proof of citizenship when asked? I used to work at a grocery store. If we sold illegal items to someone underage, we were at risk of losing our jobs. I noticed that everyone who was legal to purchase tobacco or alcohol had no problem providing an identification card. Additionally, the folks who had fake IDs always behaved differently than the ones with genuine ones. The folks with nothing to worry about will not take offense. Much like flying today. As inconvenient as I find removing my shoes, emptying my pockets and having my bags rummaged through, I also accept that I have nothing to hide and it is worth the inconvenience to be safe.

Lastly, regarding the requirement to speak English. It makes sense. Were I to live in another country, I may not be called an immigrant, but rather an ex patriot, however, I would attempt to learn that language. I find it embarrassing that the United States is “mono lingual” but we are. Most of our citizens speak only English. That is not the case elsewhere, yet, if I traveled to France, I would still try to speak French. It may not be pretty, but if I were there long enough, I could converse with the locals. I would consider it a lack of respect for the culture to expect French to speak my language. I am a guest on their soil. As a guest, I would follow their customs. I feel the converse should be true on our soil. I think the problem arises is when the guests are treated as intruders and not guests. Sometimes we are so nasty to someone who does not speak English well. Truly it saddens me. It seems very uncharitable. I was taught to open my doors to guests and treat them graciously. I think that is our responsibility as a nation founded by outcasts. You are welcome here, but please respect our rules. 

Therefore, why not expect immigrants who want to live here to learn to speak English? Why not ask people to carry cards of citizenship?

The floor is open…

Share

Advertisements
  1. Honestly, I can’t even give this debate much weight. This is going to sound uber crabby, but I don’t really feel angry. I just have a huge cold and feel crappy.

    Anyhoo, I read a study (which I naturally can’t find right now) that pretty much said–this is what America does. We allow an influx of migrant workers (e.g., Chinese and Irish to build the railroads), grow fat off their cheap labor and then have a fit, scapegoating the “expense” of them and start enacting laws to deal with the “immgration issue,” particularly in tough economic times. Kind of like how the abortion issue is only relevant during election years.

    Everything I’ve read from an economic standpoint says that undocumented workers give far more than they get. We freak out at them using “incentives” but don’t want to pay $4 for a head of lettuce so that their work can be above the board or given to a citizen. You can’t have it both ways.

    As far as the languages people speak, I don’t care. I’m not interested in controlling strangers. Communication happens in a myriad of forms. Given that a huge chunk of this country was once Mexico, I find it rather absurd that we don’t speak Spanish or haven’t designated Spanish as a second language.

    Also, I’m not sure that I agree with the concept of undocumented workers as “guests.” I am enormously grateful to have been born in this country, but I find the concept of “owning” my nation a bit absurd, particularly given the influence that multinational corporations have in our governmental policies. I don’t think this country has belonged to its people in a long time. And why does the chance of birth need to define the value of a person or their right to exist freely?

    I realize these are big questions that don’t fit nicely into a political discussion, but I think we need to start asking different questions.

    Then, of course, we are living on stolen land. What right do we have to demand anything? The relentless attempts at genocide against native peoples (still happening!), an economy built on the backs of slaves and exploited labor (again, still happening!). We’re arrogant and I find it repulsive. “If you’re gonna live here, by God, yer gonna speak the language!” Which language would that be? The language of the people our forefathers murdered by the thousands? The language of the Mexican people we displaced when purchasing massive swathes of land? The language of the slaves whose lives were utterly destroyed for the sake of profit and evil?

    I think AZ’s immigration policy speaks to who we are as a nation, and it’s ugly. I’m thrilled that people are coming forward, fighting this, but it’s a tired fight built on faulty ground.

    When someone is walking down the street, they are not purchasing a product deemed illegal for minors. They are *existing.* You would honestly not be offended if someone stopped you and asked for proof of your right to…what? Walk down this particular street? Flights–sure. But daily existance? No. That’s crossing a line. Stopping the brown folk while they meander along, demanding proof of resident or citizen status is a far cry from protecting minors from buying booze and cigs or having a safe flight.

    I have yet to have a conversation with someone deeply opposed to immigration that gave any kind of compelling reasoning. I’ve never been offered financial data, particularly comparative data that shows the cost vs. benefits of cheap labor…hell, ANYTHING that gave me cause to see this as anything other than scapegoating the darkies for whatever drama of the moment we are collectively experiencing.

  2. CF, your points resonate. I suppose I come from a place where indeed I do NOT oppose immigration.

    Do I think it ought to be different? Yeah. I do. I think that our borders should be open, whoever wants to belong can, learn our language and get a job, be paid FAIR wages… and live happily ever after.

    The way I see it now? Corporations sneak in illegal workers who are cheap help. They don’t care if they’re legal. Corps. make big dollars and the folks who came here are lambasted for being here. Tis really sad, actually.

    You make excellent points regarding our past, but that’s something we cannot undo. Today, the language is English. If you cannot speak it, you’ll struggle. Should it have been the language? that’s no longer a relevant question… because it is…

  3. I didn’t do that intentionally, but I ignored your question about being stopped for walking down the street/exisiting.

    You’re right, they aren’t asking to do anything “special” like fly or buy beer. Grey area. I won’t shy from saying I struggle with this… The other day I got a very nasty call from a bill collector who had me confused with someone else, similiarly named.

    I bristled and thought… well I gotta clear that up. End of story.

    I did nothing wrong. My crime was having a phone number that matched a similar name. Someone who doesn’t pay bills has a name like mine. Profiling? Or trying to get to the bottom of the matter?

  4. Kim, you are the voice of reason. Why does it have such a hard time being heard/understood? Maybe, because most haven’t heard the language of reason, it sounds foreign to them.

  5. Thank you Forest… I think what happens is the language for such issues has become increasingly hostile and hateful. It’s easier to make the scapegoat the weakest, not the mighty. When people rail about all the jobs that illegals take from legal Americans, I contend those jobs were never available to legal workers. We cast blame in the wrong direction. Fines should be so huge for hiring illegal workers that no company would risk it. But it’s shifting in that direction, (see today’s headline) http://www.kansascity.com/2010/05/01/1915627/recession-enforcement-driving.html

  6. Kim, I consider your position quite reasonable for the most part. Imagine that. You and I agreeing on something. LOL I knew we would find it. kidding

    Firstly, we live in a nation that speaks English. English is the second most spoken language in almost every country in the world. We may not speak it well, but we speak it. I cannot find any reason for not encouraging visitors of any stripe to do the same. One of the many reasons California is broke is because of decisions like printing election ballots in 32 different languages. Like you, wherever I have traveled around the world I have always attempted to speak their language. Sometimes it was comical but always it was appreciated by the locals.

    Now then, as to the drumbeat of condemnation from many for the state of Az, I have a suggestion. Go there, purchase property there, become a resident there on the border, earn a living there and pay your taxes there. After you have done so as an American citizen for a period of time, then come back to the table and complain that those citizens living there are racist, anti-immigationists. As a resident there you will soon experience immigrant camps in the draws behind your subdivision, housing not 5 or 10 but 60 or 70. You will begin to notice Mexican men and boys hanging out on street corners in groups hoping to be offered yard work by the locals. You will see 50 or 60 of them hanging out around the parking lots of Home Depot and similar stores hoping for work from people buying construcion or landscaping supplies. You will begin to find things missing from your yard or house and signs that someone has been there uninvited. Yeah, there are unsavory characters from Mexico just like here.

    Visit the ER at county hospital and watch how many of them come and go for treatment. Treatment the hospitals are required to give knowing full well they will never be paid for it. You would be well served to take a trip to Tijuana to the border fence and observe the every-afternoon que of “jumpers” preparing for their illegal dash into the San Diego area. I am talking about literally hundreds everyday. I was born and raised on the border. I have traveled in Mexico and worked in the import business. I am fluent in Spanish and currently work with Mexican crews, all legal. I can tell you this. The states of California and Missouri (using these because I have actually resided in both) hunt down and punish employers who knowingly hire illegals. As to other states I cannot speak with certainty except to say that when it becomes problem they will do the same.

    This issue has nothing to do with hatred or exploitation of another race of people. Are there culprits and have there been abuses? Lots of them. Show me ONE country in this world where there is nothing to be ashamed of actions of some people there.
    I have listened to accusations of racism, abuse, hatred, and Nazi-style “show me your papers” from those who lean “left” until I am simply tired of their ignorance. This issue has nothing to do with the Irish, Poles, Chinese, blacks as slaves, Vietnamese, or any other “race” of people brought here legally at the time. This has everything to do with undocumented and illegal crossing into this country by anyone and everyone. The current issue happens to take place on the Mexican border, where most folks have brown skin. Want an adventure? Take a trip into Mexico without the proper “papers”. Go beyond the border towns and just see how far you get. You will be a very very lucky person if all you get it is deported.

    Once again Kim, I appreciate your considered and rational opinion in this piece. I sense that you understand that this is not a racial issue nor is it unreasonable.

  7. Kim, thanks for responding and not taking offense at my head cold blabbering (dude, I am SO.SICK. right now!).

    I tend not to dismiss the past as irrelevant, because many of the crimes perpetuated in the past continue to this day (forced relocation of natives, slave labor, etc.). I highlight the issue of language, because I want us to stop and consider the absurdity of it all. This concept of ownership and entitlement is built on bloody ground. It might be the way it is, but the way it is is jacked!

    Most immigrants I know struggle to learn English and make sure that their children learn it. I have yet to see any immigrant outwardly refuse to speak English and demand that the world bend to their native tongue. Americans abroad? Well, that’s another story. Ug.

    The only way in which I’ve seen the language issue become an issue is when monolingual Americans get pissed off because someone else doesn’t speak English. I don’t understand how that’s relevant? Is is problematic because of potential emergency situations? How often is this an issue, given that most hospitals have multiple translators these days? Is that the real concern worthy of such laws? Or is it just an irritation of inconvenience?

    Anyhoo, as you know, I live in Southern California, where entire segments of certain cities are filled with monolingual Spanish speaking folks. I used to live in Missouri where many of the Amish women didn’t speak a lick of English. In both situations, we managed to figure out a way to communicate.

    As far as “getting to the bottom of the matter” in regard to stopping someone from walking down the street…well, what would the matter be? Does this new law require us to assume all undocumented workers are scamming the system (or whatever rationale is being used for the horrors of immigration)?

    Honestly, this is one area where I feel decidedly Libertarian! Shocking, eh? The government needs to leave us the hell alone. Thankfully, this new law is pissing off a lot of AZ law enforcement. I saw a report on Democracy Now! last night, where a Sheriff and an entire police department said that the law was “disgusting” and that they would not enforce it. Amen!

    Bottom line–I don’t get the anger towards immigrants. No one will give me any facts to justify it. Although I realize that it sounded like I was dissing it (totally not–head cold, again), I wish more people would adapt your “guest” philosophy, because it’s far more compassionate than what we currently have.

    I just hear emotional responses or vague comments like “breaking our healthcare system” (um, it’s already broken. Can I get some facts?) when people start screaming about immigration. I can’t see it as anything but racism and a repeating of historical patterns in times of economic crisis.

  8. And I’m sorry I can’t seem to comment without writing a novel.

  9. I wanted to share a comment from my facebook page that fits so well with this discussion. Thank you to our guest poster from a few weeks ago, Kent Elliot, (https://eaglewingsck.wordpress.com/2010/04/15/a-letter-to-senator-scott-brown/)

    I think what needs to be talked about is the underlying tension and issues where Americans are feeling shut out or lost in this new age or frustrated b/c they are out of work. Instead of anger, people should devote that energy to creating new kinds of work. What ideas do they have that aren’t same ole? Also, modern immigrants will be going into … See Morethe future (and their kids) speaking and having literacy in multiple languages, so instead of wringing our hands about making everyone speak English, we need to get multilingual and quick, or again, our own children will lose ground competitively. If we as American workers are finding ourselves on the losing end of the economy, anger is not the answer, creativity IS. We need to re-evaluate every single thing – our farming practices, our labor practices, how we shepherd the earth. We are stewards of this planet that God made. He loves every bird, fish, plant…when we kill the planet we kill God. The Gulf is facing an unprecedented disaster and greed is the culprit. I hear people going on about what they deserve, what they have RIGHTS for, what they AREN”T getting…it is such self-centered dialogue. Me, Me, Me. That isn’t working and won’t work. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, we may have rights to brandish weapons and say any hateful thing we want, but that doesn’t mean we have to act on them. Having a constitutional right to be a self-centered jerk is not something worth fighting for, not productive, and at the end of the day will get everyone killed.

  10. Kim; If I assume correctly that your reference to “underlying tension” and “feeling shut out”, comes from many things you have heard said or seen written fomenting hatred and disgust for immigrants because “they are taking our jobs” and doing it for less money, then I agree completely with you. Directing hatred toward anyone “not like us” truly stems from ignorance. There is a lot of truth to the statement that immigrants do much of the work the rest of us are not willing to do. I have worked the fields weeding onions, irrigating potatoes, and hauling potatoes and hay, and believe me, I was very much in the racial minority. At the same time I found something interesting. Not all latino immigrant workers were “los pobres”. I became acquainted with Mexican land owners and business owners who found a profitable opportunity in season in the fields in California. I met entire families there who, though not paid a great deal, still enjoyed the opportunity and loved the extra money they could make during the season. Of course, as anywhere, there are and have been those who would abuse the workers. We all have to be careful of that whether we are immigrant or not.

    I like your idea about those who waste energy upon hatred and defamation, redirecting that energy into creating new kinds of work. Occasionally we have been able to see that occur. Sadly, I think, far too many are stuck in that Me, Me, Me rut you mention. That attitude is not one that built this great nation. BUT remember, even during each and every phase of growth to engenuity and greatness in this nation, there have always been the many “nay-sayers” and “hangers-on” waiting for someone else to do it first.

    Your comment about teaching our children another language is so very important and gets moreso every day. I applaud any and every effort by parents and teachers to teach kids foreign languages. We truly do need it. I continue to believe though that English, or some form of it depending upon where we reside, is our national language and should be encouraged and used. I don’t have any problem with helping those who wish and need to learn it to do so. I still, however, believe that no governmental body within our borders should take the responsibility to provide materials in anything but English except perhaps for a few emergency items that may save lives.

    Lastly, yes, we are stewards of this nation and of this globe. Well said. Greed and avarice have created too many of our current problems. I would love to see those who claim all the “rights” show some responsibility in taking care of the world around themselves. If enough of us take part and pass the word by example perhaps we will eventually make some serious headway in preserving and protecting this incredible blessing we all call America.

  11. Thank you, Hawken. With all due respect, I think some of your statements perpetuate some stereotypes that really will not help our “melting pot” but rather continue to divide us. There’s an awful lot of statements about “them” in there that really are not substantiated by the numbers.

    Yesterday’s Washington Post had an excellent breakdown of “5 Myths about immigration”, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/30/AR2010043001106.html

    One of the things I still contend, were the “lure & promise” of jobs NOT here, (IE substantial penalties for those who HIRE illegals)… the problem would halt. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who came here under such pretenses. Suppose you’ve been enticed here to a lousy paying job that you risked your life to get here for… now what? You’ve got next to nothing in income, you have no CHOICE but to live with 50 or 60 people in the same situation, and you lack the resources to leave.

    They aren’t using the hospitals, because they know they’re here illegally. That’s just an undocumented fear tactic, and quite frankly, it’s tired. The soaring health care costs have little to do with illegal immigrants sneaking over the border to take advantage of our medical facilities and much more to do with again, greed.

    We have become a nation of victims looking for the easiest scapegoat to beat down instead of lifting ourselves up. It’s really sad, to be honest. Instead of acknowleging the real issues, we create ones that penalize those easy to penalize. It’s lazy thinking. It’s complacent. It’s easier to summon anger than to do something.

    What I see is that we finally are outraged, but it’s so misdirected. We are angry at the slave wages worker when we really ought to be angry at the excecutives & company decision makers who make approximately 350 TIMES the amount of the LEGAL worker (to say nothing of the illegal worker making a pittance of the legal wages).

  12. No conspiracy theory stuff here, I heard this when I was first hired as a teacher, in NC twenty-five years ago. The whole system underwent fundamental changes and experts from across the nation were brought in at great expense for teacher training and realignment of the curriculum. We were in workshops and meeting every week for the whole school year, we even had one day as a 1/2 day for students so we could have system wide, all staff training from 1:00-4:00.

    It was stated by one of the main consultants, a lady from Chicago, trying to put the whole thing in perspective for us and I paraphrase—thinking ahead ten-twenty years down the road when we have this highly trained and educated population, you might be wondering who is going to fill the manual and low skill level jobs that will still exist? Immigrant labor will fill those needs for us, was her answer to her own question.

    If the economy had kept rolling along the avenue of ever-increasing abundance, it would have worked and no one would have really cared what jobs the immigrants had because there would be very few citizens vying for those jobs. Just look around, what jobs do most legal immigrants hold, roofers, framers, landscapers, farm laborers, fast food, maids, etc. And they for the most part are good honest hard working people, they are not looking for a handout they are trying to make a living and do the best they can do for their family.

    Also part of this plan is that the same History and Geometry lesson taught this morning in NY will be the same lessons taught in LA this morning too. How’s that for indoctrinating the population and another step toward a completely controlled and planed society. That is the plan and the No Child Left Behind Act is part of that plan.

    Now that we do not have enough jobs for everyone, immigration has become a problem.

  13. Well, discussion is the essence of this blog so allow me to rebut, with due respect and without intent to offend, if you don’t mind.

    I am going to be painfully honest here Kim. Part of my original point was an invitation to move into the border area, invest your own money, work, raise your kids, and live there for a period of time. Then, refuse to believe what I have said. I was born and raised on the border. “Our melting pot” in many places is no longer a blend. Humans tend to congregate with kind and so it is in this nation. Visit Southeast LA predominately black, or Southeast San Diego, predominately Latino and black, Hollywood and Vine, where Marliyn Monroe was discovered, not long ago, Armenian and Turk, now predominately Chinese, Eastern San Diego County, Chaldean, and so it goes in every major city. There is a kind of beauty to this in a way though for those of us who truly enjoy other cultures because these areas tend to preserve native “ways”. There are those who denegrate these areas and attempt to use them as talking points against immigration. I tend to appreciate them in many ways until they become “overdone”. That term indicates to me that the area has become over populated and the result is that surrounding areas begin to lose property values which in turn drives out the original residents. I believe immigation is not a bad thing but I also believe there is a limit. Everbody in the world cannot live in America.

    I read the article and I guess I am missing your point about my references to “them” not adding up. The most important thing said in the article was, “The seasoned enforcement officials I have spoken with all contend that if we provided enough visas to meet the economy’s demand for workers, border agents would be freed to focus on protecting the nation from truly dangerous individuals and activities, such as drug-trafficking, smuggling and cartel violence.” I have always argued the same point. Why, for instance, does it take a average of 3 years for a Latino to gain legal entrance into the US? Why, also, does it take 3 or 5 or 10 years for a citizen of England, South Africa, or Spain?

    It appears you do not believe me that employers in California and Missouri (my two areas of residence and experience) are severly dealt with for knowingly hiring illegals. The laws are stringent and the penalties tough and they include deportation of the illegals. Kim, America is the land of opportunity. Ask any immigrant from anywhere in the world WHY are they here and you will consistently get the same answer. “I came for the opportunity to make a better living for myself and my family”. The “lure and promise” of jobs you tie to employers is called opportunity. It is was has built this nation since the first settlers arrived.

    “They aren’t using the hospitals because they know they are here illegally”, an undocumented fear tactic? Kim, I reiterate that this is not said to offend you, but those are words of someone who has never been there. I would love to take you by the hand and show you personally what I have seen and lived for years in California and Arizona. I think you should understand that I am not saying these things to perpetuate myths or denegrate Latinos. I happen to be very much involved in their personal lives and consider that community mi familia.

    Finally, I am interested in how much you think an entreprenuer who invests his own money and resources, his time, his life, and the lives of his family, should make in profit in comparison to his workers, regardless of their origin or their ability. Everything you write condemns the owners, managers, CEO’s, etc. who make a profit and portrays the workers and employees as down-trodden and certainly deserving of much more than they are receiving. So, I guess the question is, how much more? At what point do you believe you would be satisfied that the owners are being completely fair? In business, everything has a price and in every case it is tied directly to “what the market will bear”. So, what will your market bear?

    I fear that this may anger you and I certainly hope not. I so very much do value this frank and honest “back and forth” and I truly hope this does not offend you.

  14. I’m not offended in the least, for several reasons. I think we’re not that far apart, still. I also see the need to clarify some of the points I made. I DO oppose illegal immigration, STRONGLY. I began this piece saying I think there should be an ID card, if you recall. I am just saying that we need to really examine WHY people come here illegally, which is where I contend that if no employer hired them, pretty soon, nobody would want to come here.

    I am the grandchild of immigrants. In fact, I proudly have a copy of my great grandfather’s citizenship papers and the Ellis Island manifest where my grandfather came to America. And indeed America IS the land of opportunity. But you know what happens in the meat processing industry? About once a week, the INS rounds up 10-15 token illegals, and VOILA, 10-15 more are waiting to fill in their vacancies. And VOILA, they get jobs. It is WRONG. Something else to consider? The taxes NOT paid by someone who works under the table? Guess who DOES pay them? You and I.

    You’re right, I’ve never lived in Missouri or California. My encounters with illegal immigrants tend to only seasonally, with produce farming, home building and landscaping. I contend it is more efficient to stem the tide at the source (those who give jobs to illegals). As far as the profits of owners and entrepeneurs? Again, many members of my family are business owners. We must have that independent streak or something? I can assure you that their success did NOT involve paying illegal workers slave wages. Their success was about having good ideas, working hard, and putting in long hours, but also about treating the people who worked for them with fairness. A loyal and happy employee is a company’s best asset.

    I am in no way suggesting that business owners are not entitled to a profit, even a healthy one. But I fear our nation of opportunity is fast becoming an oligarchy, with opportunity only for those at the highest echelons of income. The disparity between upper, middle and lower classes grows. The concentration of immense wealth at the top is not the result of hard work, but rather the exploitation of those in the middle and lower ends. Look at the financial crisis… oh boy, a whole ‘nother ball of wax, eh?

  15. I am thinking that you and I agree on this more than disagree, as I indicated early on. You mention the meat packing industry and the infractions there with illegals. We find them here as well in the “chicken plants” in Southwest Missouri and in Arkansas. Perhaps the difference is that when they are hit here it is pretty hard and pretty painful for the employers. I find it difficult to believe that some of those managers don’t know when they hire an illegal immigrant. At least here, there is a painful price to pay.

    I would be in favor, I think, of a more lenient immigration policy for guest workers so they could work legally. Smart employers will always treat their workers as an asset. It is true that many Americans are not interested in doing much of the work done by immigrants. I recall a time when all drywallers in California were Anglos. Today, there is almost no such thing as a “white sheetrocker”. That tendency is quickly moving eastward. Plumbers, roofers, framers, and concrete workers are also being impacted. It has become a matter of competition. The Latinos will work for less money to get the jobs and they get plenty of them. They also, I might add, do a good job. As a result, they have moderated the overall prices of construction. Now, there are substandard crews just as there are substandard “white” crews and contractors but that is really not a change.

    I agree with you on the disparity between upper and middle and lower classes. Immense wealth at the top is indeed not the result of hard work, for the most part, and it is often wrong. I am not certain we would agree on just how and why and where that occurs but at least we do concur that the problem exists and that we would all benefit were it to be resolved.

    Good conversation. Thanks

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: